HIGHLIGHTS OF A
CONVERSATION WITH JOHN LEYTON –
ABOUT HIS ROLE
IN THE 1960’S BIGGLES TV SERIES AND
MEETING CAPTAIN W. E. JOHNS
8TH APRIL
2022
ON THE ABOVE DATE, I HAD THE GREAT
PLEASURE OF SPENDING SOME TWO HOURS CHATTING WITH MR. JOHN LEYTON, THE FAMOUS
SINGER AND ACTOR WHO AGREED TO DO AN INTERVIEW FOR MY BIGGLES.COM WEB
SITE REGARDING HIS MEMORIES OF THE 1960 TV SERIES “BIGGLES” WHERE HE PLAYED
“GINGER HEBBLETHWAITE”. “BIGGLES” WAS PLAYED
BY NEVILLE WHITING AND “BERTIE” WAS PLAYED BY DAVID DRUMMOND.
RH – Were you an actor before you were a singer, because you made
Biggles in 1960?
JL – No, it was
actually 1959.
RH – I’ve got a list of all the episodes, now you are not going to
believe this, the first episode was transmitted on 1st April 1960,
so today, 8th April, is exactly 62 years after the second episode
was transmitted. It’s the
anniversary. So you filmed them all in
’59, you think?
JL – That’s
interesting, now let’s work this out.
RH – There’s 44 episodes.
JL – Now we did
it at Granada in Manchester for Granada Television. I can’t remember the address of the studios,
I imagine they are still there.
RH – Is it where they made Coronation Street?
JL – I remember
talking to the man who started that – Tony Warren – in the pub near the studios
where we all used to go to. He said
“I’ve got this idea for a street in the north of England and it will probably
revolve around a pub a bit”.
RH – And you said it will never take off?
JL – He said
what do you think of it and I said it sounds boring and terrible. But we laughed about it later. I could have sworn I was there in 1959
because in 1958, I was at the Theatre Royal, York in repertory.
RH – So you were an actor first before you were a singer?
JL – Yes, I had
never done any singing at all. So I came
out of drama school and I went to the Theatre Royal, York and repertory those
days, wonderful training.
RH – Different play every week?
JL – Yes. It wasn’t uncommon at the end of one week for
somebody to say a line from the following play.
RH – So you were rehearsing next week’s play when you were doing
this week’s play?
JL – Yes, it was
a good training ground because we were paid, albeit a pittance.
RH – And were you living in digs and did you move around?
JL – Yes.
RH – So a typical actor’s life?
JL – Yes. That was definitely 1958 as I was 22.
RH – Have a look at this. (RH
shows John Leyton the following magazine)
RH – This is a cover of the TV Times from 1960
JL – Yes, I
remember that. That was an Auster. Because we went up in an Auster to get a feel
for it.
RH – Do you remember that cover?
JL – Yes, I
remember it. Is Neville Whiting still
alive?
RH – I think he is. (NB - I
WAS WRONG, LATER RESEARCH FOUND THAT NEVILLE WHITING HAD DIED ON 6th
JUNE 2006)
JL – And David
Drummond is?
RH – Yes
JL – One of the
tours I did, David Drummond was in the audience and I introduced him.
RH – So you hadn’t seen him for 40 years or so?
JL – Yes. I introduced him as Bertie. I remember saying to the audience, and I was
Ginger. David was Bertie the posh one
and I was Ginger, the scruffy one.
RH – Now this is an Australian TV Times (RH shows John Leyton
the following magazine).
JL – I have
never seen that before.
RH – This is from February 1962.
It’s a brilliant picture of the three of you.
JL – Yes – Our
eyes stand out. They have spelt my name
wrong! (THE COVER HAS THE NAME JOHN LAYTON
INSTEAD OF JOHN LEYTON)
RH – Yes, I had noticed that, I was going to say to you. So, you don’t recall seeing that when that
came out?
JL – No, I have
never seen that.
RH – Well, in which case, may I give it to you as a gift. I bought it from Australia, but please, let
me give that to you.
JL – Thank you
very much.
RH – If you have never seen that one, it’s vital that you have it
for your records.
JL – I could
have sworn – because I came out of repertory in late ’58 and I always thought I
did Biggles the following year in 1959.
RH – Was it your first TV job?
You very first TV job?
JL – Yes. The first thing I ever did if you like,
professionally because the Theatre Royal, York, was semi-professional. People attended the theatre and paid to see
plays. Then I went back to London to
find an agent, which was quite difficult because of the old thing, “What have
you done?” “Well, I need an agent ………..”
RH - Catch 22.
JL – Anyway, I
teamed up with Robert Stigwood and he put me up for Biggles which I had to go
up to Manchester to test for and there were several other “Gingers” on the
train going up. And anyway, they decided
they would go with me. I would question
that date.
RH – These are the transmission dates they were shown on TV. I have only got them off the Internet so I
can’t swear it’s Gospel.
JL – Well maybe
we did it late ’59, then these came out in ’60.
RH – How did you get on with Neville (Whiting who played
Biggles) and David (Drummond who played Bertie)? Were you all good friends?
JL – Oh, yes.
RH – Did you keep in touch afterwards?
JL – Well sadly,
no. Once it finished, we went our
separate ways. I don’t know what
happened to Neville. I never heard of
him again. Being in anything or doing
anything. David Drummond had a passion
for walking sticks. He used to pitch up
for rehearsals and on the day when we were actually trying to record and he
always had a different walking stick.
And he finished up, I know, he had a shop in Leicester Square which sold
antique walking sticks and various other antiques. When I saw him again, he wrote to the theatre
where I was appearing.
RH – And said “I am going to be in the audience?”
JL – Yes. So I introduced him. We were going to meet but I seem to remember
that at the time there was a lot of problems at theatres and public gatherings. There were terrorist bombings so nobody was
allowed back stage, so I couldn’t ask him back stage. So we never actually got to see each other
again. I thought Neville, was a lot
older than me. I’m 86. (John was born
on 17th February 1936).
When I was doing that, I was 22, no I wasn’t, I was 23 and Neville was
35 (Neville Whiting was born on 14th February 1924) so he was
12 years older than me, so he would be 98.
RH – If he is still alive ……. So probably not then.
JL – And David
also was quite a bit older than me. He
was 30, so he would be 93.
RH – Did you ever meet Captain W. E. Johns?
JL – Yes. I met him very briefly, we all met him.
RH – Did you? I have
something I want to show you.
RH – It’s a Biggles book (a second edition of Biggles Works it
Out published in May 1952) and it’s signed by W. E. Johns and the
cast. Do you remember signing any books
together?
JL – We met W.
E. Johns.
RH – He was known as Bill, wasn’t he?
JL – It was a
very brief meeting.
RH – So it was just Captain Johns?
JL – I remember
he was always referred to as W. E. Johns in the brief time that I met him.
RH – Did you all sign something at the same time?
JL – No.
RH – So you signed it later?
JL – Yes, we signed
it later. But I do remember telling
Captain Johns, what was his full name?
RH – William Earl, but he was known as Bill to his friends.
JL – I do
remember talking to him. You’ll forgive
me, it’s such a long time ago.
RH – Presumably back in ’59 when you were filming?
JL – Yes, it
would have been. Yes, it was when we
were actually filming. I do remember, he
was a very pleasant man. Very quiet. And I remember saying to him “When I was a
little boy, I used to read your books”.
And in those original books, I seem to remember there was a page where
it said “This book belongs to” and I used to write my name in them. (JOHN MAY BE REMEMBERING THE BOOK CLUB
EDITIONS OF THE BOOKS WHICH SOMETIMES HAD THIS STICKER IN THEM).
JL – I told
Captain Johns that. I had all these
books and little did I know that I would end up playing Mr. Hebblethwaite.
RH – Were you a fan of the Biggles books then?
JL – Yes, as a
boy.
RH – Because they are extremely good, aren’t they? Really well written.
JL – Yes.
RH – This one (referring to the book signed by Johns and the
cast of Biggles) I managed to buy, but it looks like it’s been signed by
the entire cast. Is that your signature?
JL – It
definitely is.
RH – You don’t remember signing it? I presume you signed loads of Biggles books?
JL – Well I
don’t think we did, actually and that book is quite rare.
RH – Interesting. I have
never seen another one and I am a big collector of Johns memorabilia. I have never seen one signed by the entire
cast before.
JL – I vaguely
remember signing this.
RH – Would it have been a schoolboy saying “Mr. Leyton will you
sign here”? Or something like that? Or would it have been signing a book for a
prize, perhaps? Do you reckon that would
have been signed at the same time as when you meet W. E. Johns?
JL – I would
have thought so. He was in the studio.
RH – Perhaps one of the producers asked him to sign the book?
JL – He would
have seen us filming or something and I would have thought he probably signed
that the day I met him.
RH – And then somebody said can the cast sign as well?
JL – I don’t
remember. I vaguely remember signing
this because I vaguely remember looking at it, David signed first and then I
signed and poor old Neville he signed at the bottom and I remember saying “You
should be at the top because you’re Biggles!”
RH – Isn’t that incredible that you can remember that?!
JL – I said to
him, you should be at the top, you’re Biggles, it’s the wrong way around. I don’t remember signing any other books.
RH – That is most interesting.
JL – That’s a
one off.
RH – So it’s absolutely unique?
Well, that’s fascinating to hear. That is incredible. In order to prepare for the role of Ginger,
then, would you have read any more books or was it just a case of learning the
script – as simple as that?
JL – Having read
the books as a boy, I knew the character.
I knew all about Biggles and I remember Algy. I was very familiar.
RH – So when you went to the audition, did you say that you were
familiar with the character and the books and that sort of gets you the role?
JL – No I
didn’t. I went for the audition and I
remember the audition, I was there …… I went up on the train and I must have
got there just after 12.00 o’clock. They
didn’t get round to me, I was the very last one to audition and I tested. Every test had a Biggles, a Bertie and a
Ginger and I tested with Neville (Whiting).
So he was tested for Biggles, I was tested for Ginger and another actor
was tested for Bertie but he didn’t get it, obviously Neville and I did.
RH – What did they get you to do?
Just read some scripts?
JL – I was
wondering if they would get around to testing me before I had to go home. I remember that after my test, I thought I
had probably got it because the producers came into the dressing room and they
seemed to be terribly pleased with what I had done.
RH – So you felt confident?
What did the testing involve? Would they give you a few pages of script to
learn or do you read from the script as you test – or do you learn it first?
JL – They gave
us a scene. I had already been given a
couple of pages of a scene which I had learnt – I had learnt the lines; I knew
what to do. It was all very
straight-forward. I suppose by the time
they got around to me, I had been hanging around all day, so I was quite
relaxed about it. I thought “Let’s get
on with it”. Anyway, that was my very
first break, my first acting role, professional, really.
RH – Was it all done in studio or did you go on location for
anything?
JL – No, it was
all done in the studio and in those days, it was very basic.
RH – So what are we talking about? Two cameras? One camera?
JL – I think it
was one camera, yes.
RH – And they didn’t have recording breaks as I understand
it? You did it “as live”? Is that right?
JL – Yes. The episodes – correct me if I am wrong –
were half an hour.
RH – They were – can I say that I have never seen them. You can’t get them on DVD and I was born in
1965 so I haven’t seen them – I would love to see them. They all still exist.
JL – Well, we
did the whole episode – half an hour – like a play and we ran from one end of
the stage, where all the sets were, from one set to the next set and sometimes
you would just get to the set in time to say the lines.
RH – It was all filmed continuously as it was expensive to cut the
video tape in those days?
JL – Anything
that needed filming, which was very little, they used to say “Cut to Telecine”
whatever that meant.
RH – So they had pre-filmed something? Like perhaps you were running across a field
or something like that? So, when would
you do the pre-filming? Would that be
done a week before?
JL – There was
very, very little Telecine, very little and it would be done locally. I remember sitting in a helicopter and it was
a fake helicopter on the stage.
RH – So somebody is turning the rotor round and round?
JL – There is
something going round and round to look as if we were ……. to get the shadow of
it and I was sitting with, I can’t remember if it was David or Neville, and the
whole front doesn’t exist, so we are just sitting there, like you and I and the
camera is here (John indicates to his near left).
RH – And you’re saying “Biggles, look down there!”
JL – That’s
right – and to make matters worse, they put on a helicopter noise so we had
this huge noise and it was very difficult to hear the other actor and in fact,
I didn’t hear the other actor. There was
a lovely girl, a continuity girl, with the script and I said the line. I mean I knew the line but I didn’t hear the
other actor stop. And the other
extraordinary thing that happened, the special effects in those days were
awful. Everything was done with
miniatures.
RH – OK – So you would look down at a boat or something and it
would be a toy boat?
JL – And of
course they were filmed in one piece.
One episode was filmed all the way through.
RH – In order?
JL – Yes. I think it was a week’s rehearsal and then we
shot an episode and then another week’s rehearsal and the next episode. On one occasion we sunk a boat – a speedboat. It went out live. How they got away with it, I don’t understand
it but anyway, it went out and it was a miniature, the speedboat was a
miniature and there was a lake and the speedboat or boat was attached to a
piece of cotton and so when we blew it up – I don’t know how they did that –
there was somebody pulling this cotton down to sink it and unfortunately the
cotton broke so the boat wouldn’t sink and it shot up again, so it didn’t
sink. I can’t believe they let that
go. Some of the episodes we did, not all
of them, very few, some of them were actually live and that was terrifying as
you were running from one end of the stage to the other to get to the set in
time.
RH – What would happen if you fluffed a line then? Would they stop filming or would they keep
going?
JL – They would
just keep going. You knew it was
live. If somebody fluffed a line or
forgot a line you just carried on.
RH – Do you know why the series came to an end? Was it not popular? I presume it’s all to do with ratings ……..
JL – I think so,
yes. I don’t know. I was quite disappointed that it did
end. I don’t know how many episodes we
did do.
RH – They made 44.
JL – Oh, it did
go on for quite a time.
RH – I suppose that’s almost a year’s work?
JL – I remember
there was a television show on at the time – an American one, a police, a cop
series and it starred an actor called Broderick Crawford. (John is
remembering “Highway Patrol” which ran from 1955 – 1959) and he had a
saying, when he finished a conversation on the radio he would say “Ten
four”. “OK, let’s do it, ten four”. And I remember we hoped that “Chock’s away”
would catch on like that but it didn’t seem to quite do it.
RH – That’s incredible. I
wasn’t aware that was your first acting job, so fond memories for you?
JL – Of
Biggles? Oh yes. It was a very exciting time of my life. I decided to become an actor and you never
know. It’s a very precarious life. You never know if anything is ever going to
happen or if you are going to work.
JL – I was with
Robert Stigwood, who took me on as an actor and then the singing
developed. Then in 1961, which wasn’t
long after Biggles, because when I was doing Biggles, I got quite a big
following of teenage girls.
RH – So that led to the singing?
JL – So I had
this huge following and I think Stigwood, being a businessman thought, “Hello,
there’s a market there” and he said “Can you sing?” and I said, “Well, yes, I
can sing. Whether I can sing
professionally or not is another matter, but sure, I can sing”.
(John Leyton,
of course, went on to have a number of hits in the 1960’s – his biggest hit
reaching number one in August 1961 – “Johnny,
Remember Me”).
RH – We have got to talk about “THE GREAT ESCAPE”. Since I was six, it has been my favourite
film my whole life. I absolutely love
it. I must have seen it 40 times and I
am afraid that I am one of those people who knows every line.
JOHN THEN
KINDLY SPENT THE BEST PART OF ANOTHER HOUR TALKING ABOUT HIS MEMORIES OF ‘THE
GREAT ESCAPE’ AND OTHER HIGHLIGHTS FROM HIS CAREER.
YOU CAN READ
WHAT HE HAD TO SAY AND ENJOY HIS FANTASTIC ANECDOTES ON MY STEVE McQUEEN WEBSITE
HERE http://www.stevemcqueen.org.uk/John%20Leyton/
Transcribed
and edited by Roger Harris - with grateful thanks to Mr. John Leyton
RETURN TO WWW.WEJOHNS.COM
OR WWW.BIGGLES.COM